So per Kenny and my experience will dose MetroPlex (70% Metronidazole) at at least 500mg/10gal BID to TID for 7 days before I try Dimetridazole which I received today.
Dosed 2.6gm of 70% Metro tonight. Will need to dose BID vs TID. So that would be 750mg/10gal q 12 hours. Also added a little MgSO4 bc no aquarium salt here to ease tx with antibiotic.
pH still maintained at 4.0 which has clearly helped more than anything. They are eating but not well.
Set up the Mike Senske tank. Will do dry start method to decrease demand and improve early plant growth.
CC
Carey,
Metro
is best administered at 92F +/- so initially raise the tank temp to be around
that range, and dose 500mg per 10g(Metro from the above link is at 250mg
strength so use 2 tablets per 10g) and re-dose every 8-12 hours with a full
single dose, with a 50% daily WC for a total of 5-7 days. Upon finishing the
Metro treatment I would keep the tank temp elevated at around 90F for another
week just to maintain their metabolic rate higher for a little longer.
Btw
you should pre-dissolve the Metro tablets/powder(calculate how many Metro
you'll need to use for your tank size beforehand if using tablets) with hot
water in a small container and shake them well, prior to pouring them in to
your main tank.
Sincerely,
Sent
from my iPhone
Kenny,
I hope you are well.
I've bought fish from you several times and they are beautiful.
Unfortunately my fish have a chronic wasting disease caused by cryptobia.
This has been confirmed by necropsy of 3 fish and microscopic stool analysis
showing the organisms. Unfortunately, the vets I've consulted know of no
cure. I've ordered dimetridazole as recommended by one of the vets.
Given your experience I wonder if you know of something else to suggest.
If this doesn't work I will lose all these fish...I have 8 with 3 showing signs
of the infection and one confirmed with it from analyzing the stool.
Thanks,
Carey Cottle MD
-----Forwarded
Message-----
From: "Baumgartner, Wes"
Sent: Apr 8, 2015 9:04 PM
To: Carey Cottle Jr MD
Subject: RE: CONFIRMED CRYPTOBIOSIS RE: new stool sample
of corral colored thin discus (Cottle)
Carey,
I haven’t received any
information from Roy Yanong in florida. At this point I’d say to try either of
the methods advocated by florida and see if either works. I’ll send an
email to PTK Woo in Canada-he’s the expert on vaccines in cryptobia.
From: Carey Cottle Jr MD [mailto:ccottle@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 6:35 PM
To: Baumgartner, Wes; Dr. Sam Young
Subject: CONFIRMED CRYPTOBIOSIS RE: new stool sample of corral colored
thin discus (Cottle)
Wes and Sam,
I have examined a stool sample
from an affected fish and under 400X clearly seen numerous cryptobia.
This YouTube video helped my certainty about what I’m seeing.
The fish have started eating
again in the QT at pH 4.0. But it does not look like this organism is
affected. Please offer me something, even experimental to try on this
organism. I’ve been using metronidazole again, but I have used it before
without cure. Univ of Fla suggest this:
Experiments
run at the Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory suggest that these two treatment
regimens may decrease the infection load: a) a bath treatment with
dimetridazole (80 mg/L for 24 hrs, followed by a 80-100% water change, repeated
daily for 3 days); or b) a bath treatment with 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol (10 mg/L
for 24 hrs, followed by a 80-100% water change, repeated daily for 3 days).
Sam, Can you help me get one of
these to try?
Any help is appreciated.
Carey
From: Baumgartner, Wes [mailto:baumgartner@cvm.msstate.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 4:25 PM
To: Carey G Cottle Jr MD
Subject: RE: new stool sample of corral colored thin discus (Cottle)
Carey,
You raise an interesting
question. I don’t know if the cryptobia can survive the low pH, nor am I sure
of the pH of a discus stomach. If the cryptobia are relatively symbiotic in the
discus stomach, then I tend to doubt that acid treatment would affect
flagellates in an acid stomach. However, if diseased individuals have abnormally
high gastric pH, then acid treatments (with swallowing) may affect flagellate
numbers in the stomach, possibly relieving the infection temporarily.
Also, you’re right that the acid
treatment may be doing something unrelated to the cryptobia. I found moderate
numbers of dermocystidium in the gills, which normally don’t cause too much of
a problem. Acid baths may reduce these parasites, leading to improved fish
behavior.
I’ll look in to cryptobia in
stool samples as a diagnostic method.
Wes,
I wonder if we can take
advantage of one of the features of discus….they tolerate a low pH of
4.0. Do cryptobia tolerate pH 4.0?
Here’s the background. I
took the 3 discus that showed poor or limited eating and QT them for 3-4 days
and lowered the pH to 4.0. The discus that was euthanized, and which you
received, responded initially. He began eating all foods again for 2-3
days (after not eating for over a week) before he suddenly died. The
other fish also responded to the low pH treatment and have started eating all
foods again. I had seen an article that said mycobacteria did not survive
at pH below 4.0 and I knew discus could so that’s what gave me the idea to try
it. BC of a trip I had upcoming I had to return them to the main tank on
Tues of this last week. My main tank is maintained between 6.2 and 6.8
depending on the time of day. In the QT tank at pH 4.0 the nitrifying bacteria
also die and ammonia levels build up too high without daily 80% water
changes. I wasn’t going to be there to make the daily water changes
necessary for maintaining a pH 4.0 tank therefore I had to return the fish to
the main tank.
I wonder if Cyrptobia don’t
tolerate low pH could we do an experiment using low pH to try curing the discus
from this menace. If you think adding metronidazole may help as well we
could do a combination. It was really remarkable seeing all the fish
regain their appetite using the low pH. This of course could have been a
coincidence. Humans secret acid in their GI tract and yet occasionally
pathogens survive. Maybe discus GI pathogens also tolerate low pH.
For your info. My main
tank is a planted discus tank 90 gallons in size. It is maintained at 82F
for the discus. I do 40% water changes weekly without fail. I use
local tap water every other week alternating with RO water for the
changes. The tank is connected to a computer where I monitor temp, pH,
ORP (oxidation reduction potential) continuously.
Can Cryptobia be diagnosed by
microscopy of stool? I have a Nikon microscope and am interested in
learning to better recognize pathogens in discus stool samples. If you
have any suggestions on aids to help with microscopic identification of
pathogens I would appreciate it. I have seen flagellates but wasn’t sure
what was pathogenic and what wasn’t. Of course stool samples must be
analyzed immediately upon collection. If I learn to recognize the
pathogens then Dr. Young can treat the fish correctly.
Thank you for your expertise,
interest, and concern.
Carey Cottle
From: Baumgartner, Wes [mailto:baumgartner@cvm.msstate.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:34 PM
To: Carey Cottle Jr MD
Subject: RE: new stool sample of corral colored thin discus (Cottle)
Carey,
I’ve reviewed the histology
slides of your discus and I’ve found several microscopic stomach granulomas
that lack acid fast organisms. A wasting syndrome in discus fish associated
with stomach granulomas has been reported in association with cryptobia
iubilans, a flagellate of the intestinal tract. I think this is probably what’s
been going on. I saw no convincing evidence of mycobacteriosis. I spoke with
Sam and I’ve got a sample of spleen in ethanol that we can run PCR for
mycobacteria on. However, without granulomas in any tissue but the stomach, I
doubt we’d find any evidence for mycobacteria.
I’ve attached a report of
cryptobia in discus that you will find interesting. The syndrome in your tank
is remarkably similar. Treatment is difficult.
Additionally, there is abundant
iron in the liver, which I associate with high red cell turnover. It is
uncommon in fish and of uncertain significance, though can be associated with
pollution in wild fish populations.
I’ll send a report by next week
to Sam. This is an interesting condition in discus, the mechanism and cause of
which is not entirely certain. I’ll mention this to the fish parasitologist in
the department and see if there is interest in studying this disease.
Many thanks for the great case.
Regards,
From: Carey Cottle Jr MD [mailto:ccottle@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 5:47 PM
To: Baumgartner, Wes
Cc: Dr. Sam Young
Subject: RE: new stool sample of corral colored thin discus (Cottle)
Thank you so much, Wes! I
am anxious to learn from your expertise. I will forward this to Sam Young
DVM. He is happy to participate as well.
My loss will be rewarded by the
advancement of knowledge for the significant Discus loving community.
“Discus wasting disease” is a common syndrome from which my fish
suffer. No doubt, this syndrome can have multiple causes, but a
definitive diagnosis in any case would be helpful.
Be safe in the ice,
Carey
From: Baumgartner, Wes [mailto:baumgartner@cvm.msstate.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 5:52 PM
To: Carey Cottle Jr MD
Subject: RE: new stool sample of corral colored thin discus (Cottle)
Carey,
I will be out of the office
tomorrow due to icy weather here in Mississippi-I’ll try and contact Sam
tomorrow or perhaps Thursday.
I spoke with a friend of mine at
LSU- if the discus is euthanized and freshly examined, sterile samples of
granulomatous material can be overnighted on ice to him for culture, PCR, and
antimicrobial testing.
His address:
Louisiana Aquatic Animal
Diagnostic Lab c/o John Hawke
1043 River Road
Baton Rouge LA 70803
Formalin fixed tissues,
preferably the whole fish, can be sent to me at:
Wes Baumgartner
240 Wise Center Drive
Mississippi State, MS
39762
I’ll have a look at the reports
and materials you’ve sent.
Best regards,
Wes
From: Carey Cottle Jr MD [mailto:ccottle@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 10:22 AM
To: Baumgartner, Wes
Subject: FW: new stool sample of corral colored thin discus (Cottle)
Sam,
There are couple of things to see
in this stool sample. I don’t know what either are.
One is round large with apparent
nucleus and spike protrusions.
The other is a rod-like organism
with a distinct wall and which is motile. The video shows that.
I checked the Noga textbook.
Didn’t see anything like these. They may be benign.
Thanks again.
Carey
